Safer Shake and bake method to be reviewed.

[hirozaru]

I was given this recipe by a friend chemist, telling me SnB is dangerous, and this should be safer.

There are a few things in there I find very interesting, others I am very puzzled of.
Why most people says to only use Ammonium Nitrate, but he is against it ?


First, it assumes you have done the PSE extractions from your pills. I can't comment whether it will work from crushed pills.

And I can't directly share the extraction methods, since it depends on specific pills ingredients and filling.

=======

I'm still against the SnB as it scientifically requires pressure-proof equipments but as you insist I'll at least guide you through a lower risk procedure.

1.choosing the right flask for the reaction, what i recommend is an old fire extinguisher but make sure it completely seals off (preferably with a control valve that opens and closes on demand).

2.Dont use ammonium nitrate because it has a higher tendency to explode. instead use Ammonium Sulfate or Ammonium chloride as a safe ammonia source.
3.The Base would be Sodium hydroxide of course. always use a saturated solution to minimize the amount of water used in the reaction as it consumes lithium quickly and generates heat.

4.Add non-polar solvent to ammonia salt (insoluble)
5.then Add sodium hydroxide solution gradually (not all at once) as it generates heat quickly.

6.The reaction releases Ammonia Gas, Sodium Sulfate as a by-product.

7.keep the reaction flask in an Ice Bath the whole time. it's very helpful to reduce the pressure needed to liquify ammonia.

****Slowly open the valve every 2 or 3 minutes to decrease the pressure.

****this process will require about 20-30 minutes to liquify ammonia.


Now for SnB :

1.Dump in all pseudoephedrine, ephedrine, phenylpropanamine or other substituted beta-hydroxyphenethylamines .

Note : you can use the non-polar layer from extraction Tek but the resulting product will be less pure.

2.Get lithium Metal Strip (Always Keep It Saved In Non-Polar Solvent to prevent oxidation and fire ). cut it with scissors to about 2x2cm size and slowly add 2-3 pieces of lithium to the reaction flask every 5-8 minutes. shake the flask gently after adding pieces of lithium to get the amine (non-polar layer) in contact with free lithium ions (in liquid gas aqueous layer)

Note : Open the Valve to depressurize the container before opening the seal. this is extremely important to keep you safe.
Always Seal the container again after adding pieces of metal.

3.This Process will take about 40-120 Minutes .

4.After that. depressurize the container and move everything to a beaker, quickly get un-reacted lithium out of the solution and put it non-polar solvent to prevent fire.

5.the solution will have brown color (indicates reacted lithium). dispose of aqueous layer (contains ammonia) and keep the non-polar layer (contains the product free base).

6.Wash the Fuel layer with water 3 times to get rid of suspended ammonia (necessary step. if you skip this step the end product will have Ammonium chloride mixed with it)

7.use H2SO4 And table salt to bubble HCL Gas into the fuel layer.

8.Resulting salt is insoluble and will immediately precipitate.

9.wash the product with freezing cold acetone.

Last and very important Note : it's important to use the salt form (pseudoephedrine hydrochloride) in this reaction.
if you decided to use a freebase in fuel form you'll have to use ammonium chloride as a source of ammonia.

Be careful with the whole thing. I'm still against it but if you're willing to do it you're gonna do it. I'm only helping you reduce the risk when working with chemicals.

## Measurements

these measurements are enough to reduce 3000mg of pseudo.
1. add 36g of sodium hydroxide to 75ml of water and make sure everything dissolves and solution returns to room temperature .
2. For Ammonium chloride 53g is needed. for ammonium sulfate 66g is needed (both gives the same amount of ammonia gas)
3. For Fuel, 50ml is more than enough.
4. if additional gas is needed (container is too big to pressurize), a mixture of 2.5g NaOH (solid form) + 4g ammonia salt is added directly to the reaction without adding water. this ratio 2.5/4 can be added repeatedly every 3 minutes with gentle mixing until enough liquid is collected (can be repeated up to 35 times)
5. lithium: one strip from CR123A Battery is more than enough for 3,000mg

 

[Osmosis Vanderwaal]

initially it looks viable. I didn't calculate the figures. I Want to mention that you don't need a saturated solution, you CAN Mix the NaOH and the ammonium Salt dry and drip water on it. The reaction makes Water that will keep it going then you only need 1/2 a gram(half A battery worth) of lithium. also plastic water bottles(the thinones) are designed to handle over 100 psi and a Soda bottle 130psi but CAN usually handle 150 psi Anmonia is liquid at room temp at 100 psi. they don't spontaniously explode they strech first. I've Seen A 2 liter bottle go from 12" tall to 24" tall before it Burst. When it starts stretching is the time to vent it(or when you can't dent it with your thumb)

 

[Osmosis Vanderwaal]

the ammonium ratios are wrong 53 grams of NH3CI is the same AS 132 grams(NH3)²SO⁴. when one math is bad several are usually bad And. often it means the author CAN'T balance a reaction, which is a bad sign

 

[hirozaru]

don't we hear stories of people doing shake and bake in their cars ? is this not true? What happens if the ratios are not precise? Impurities? or it adds waste? or it just fails ?

whats the difference between using Ammonium Nitrate, Sulfate or Chloride ?

 

[Osmosis Vanderwaal]

Yes people do it in their cars, backpacks basically anywhere. The woods is often an attractive place. Usually s&b method can't be accurately calculated because the reaction is not controlled and the chemicals are not pure. Some methods utilize whole crushed pills or even Whole uncrushed pills. There are multiple reagents variously used, if you add water that burns a lot of lithium so I've seen recipes from half a AA battery to 2AA batteries basically there's 1 gram in a battery (0.94g according to Energizer referring to advanced lithium AA's 15 years ago ) per 5000 mg.(2 boxes often).
In this particular scenario the difference between sulfate chlidr and nitrate is little because all you are doing is Cracking it to release the ammonia , but I imagine Nh⁴Cl+NaOH=NH³(g), NaCl, and H²O, which has a couple of consequences. It adds water to fuel further reaction and water also eats your lithium. (NH³)²SO⁴+NaOH=Na²SO⁴, 2NH³, 2H²O. Note sodium sulfate is made here and is a good drying agent. Bonding 8 water molecules per molecule so ammonium sulfate is definitely going to need some water. Then NH⁴NO³+ NaOH=Nh³ gas. H²O, and NaNo³. Sodium nitrate, which looks like it might be able to steal a little lithium. None of them make or break a reaction. Having too little could result in an incomplete reaction and too much will just leave more trash in your gear. The only risk of total failure is in not making enough pressure to liquefy and not making your solvated electrons ( lithium bronze).
THE PRIMARY THING IS DOES IS SOW DOUBT IN THE ABILITY OF THE AUTHOR. I have seen a lot of recipes that definitely weren't proven because they are fatally flawed in one way or another. A lot of people take a huge risk and waste money on bad recipes. You don't have to be successful to burn your house down and go to prison.

 

[Osmosis Vanderwaal]

the ratio of NAOH to ( NH3)²So⁴ should be 1:3 AND to NH³ CL the ratio is 3:4

 

[pugzarmyl]

So does the synthesis work? I want to make meth but ammonium nitrate is hard to come by so I want to use ammonium chloride.

 

[Osmosis Vanderwaal]

My opinion is, as written, no. The second step 7 ( opening the reactor repeatedly isn't going to work. As soon as you let the pressure off the ammonia will turn to gas, your solvated electron will be destroyed instantly and you are back to square 1. Once you add the lithium, you can't let the pressure off. Other problems I see with it include generally speaking 1 gram of lithium is technically 5 times what you need and usually in use twice what you need, all the extra water in the NaOH "saturated solution" is going to eat through a shit load of it and there's no reason to use a saturated solution as the reaction makes enough water to complete itself once it kicks off. I haven't even attempted to calculate that as there's no way to calculate what is going to happen to the stuff inside a reaction inside a vessel you can't see into but there's definitely enough water in this scheme to kill it

 

[hirozaru]

I see what you mean. 75ml is a lot of water, I think he suggested that because he wants the NaOH solution to cool off before mixing it in, reducing heat to reduce risk.

I was using a simpler method, where I put lithium first, PSE, NH₄NO₃ all together in the fuel, NaOH last. Then 5 ml water only to kick off the reaction.

I usually put a whole battery of lithium, because keeping half in a separate container, and transferring it is more annoying than the cost of the extra lithium. even a CR123A batteries because they are sometimes cheaper Energizer AA lithium batteries.

Thanks for your feedback. this is really helpful.

 

[SoldadoDeDrogas]

Why post YET ANOTHER shoddy SnB recipe? As if there wasn't enough confusion and urban legend surrounding this particular method. Why keep adding to it? I've posted a safe way to do this successfully - and I'm confident enough in the safety of it that I do it in a glass bottle to boot. Everything you need to know has already been written and posted on this site. Easy enough for a total noob to figure out. The PDF file that Flatline didn't write. The PDF that Douda updated. The SnB video from Hamilton's Pharmacopeia - "How not to cook meth" and the AthenaLeaks Rocky Mountain Police SnB cook video. All I did was put it all together and figure it out, and I figured it with no formal chemistry training/experience without hurting myself. Why reinvent the wheel?

Obviously, everyone chooses to do a SnB at their own risk. Having said that, this recipe by your "Chemist friend" is terribly ignorant and irresponsible and seriously misleading, implying that he is a professional that has taken the time to optimize safety for the rest of us idiots or something. I am sorry to say it like that, because, like I say, I am not a chemist, I haven't ever even been in a chemistry class, but I can look at this recipe and tell it will not work. Not only will it not work, but it is even probably MORE dangerous than most of the recipes already described. He describes the birch reaction process accurately for the most part but that's about it. More water than fuel? Seriously? If he actually tried this himself before telling people "The safe way to do a SnB" "From a certified Chemist" and even though y'all are "against it" you choose to misinform others anyway, knowing full well that you don't know. If he had tried it, he would know what happens when the H2O and Li react and that this would go wrong quick. He wouldn't be trying to spread more confusion ... only adding to the danger - from a standpoint of total ignorance.

---"Be careful with the whole thing. I'm still against it but if you're willing to do it you're gonna do it. I'm only helping you reduce the risk when working with chemicals." ---
You say you're trying to prevent harm, what is this?

I'm not going to bother tearing this apart, this is a bunk recipe - don't waste your time and money. Like I said I already showed a working method that is safe and posted it. There are 100 different ways that will work, what I posted isn't "THE TRUTH", it is just another way to skin a cat. There is so much room to play with in this method. When you understand what you're really trying to do in this procedure, you realize it's actually harder to screw it up. If you're that scared, just use a fire extinguisher instead of a glass bottle if it makes you feel better. I don't understand why worry about safety when you plan to vent the damn thing every 2 minutes anyway... which, aside from all the H2O, also guarantees that this won't do shit. You're just gonna be burning all your Li.

For anyone planning to do a SnB, YOU MUST UNDERSTAND that there is a strategy, a method to doing this process successfully. It's not as easy as it used to be - you can't just throw PSE, Anh NH3 and Li in a bottle and just start shaking to make meth like this anymore. There's a reason you add the ingredients with tactical intent and handle it specific ways during different stages. It is somewhat of a tempermental process... but you actually have to try this to know that, and figure it out.

 

[Osmosis Vanderwaal]

MAN watch out with those glass bottles. Wrap them in chickenwire or something. It's not the explosion, it's the 1000 fps glass shards. If the bottle had a hairline crack it could explode at 10 psi. Mason jars are rated for 60 psi and lab glass made for pressure is good to 100 psi, but you'll be close or above that without a way to knw exactly and a glass bottle gives no indication it is going to explode. Plastic bottles stretch first, so you can run over there and release the pressure when it starts getting taller

 

[SoldadoDeDrogas]

It is somewhat reckless of me, no doubt. I do it to give some confidence to the rest of us. I don't know, maybe I shouldn't.... I can't explain how it came to me so easily
other than my base knowledge and experience from other areas in life going into it. Exhibiting dilligence towards reading and re-reading any and all information related to this process and understanding it. Having good listening/communication skills - yes, with inanimate things. A plant communicates it needs water by wilting. Just as this process communicates, you have to know the signs to listen for, what it means, how to react.

I should make note:
I'm using a larger bottle than is necessary by serveral hundred ml (1.5L) I prefer these kombucha bottles - they're a little thicker than most bottles I noticed and they're made to handle a bit of internal pressure. Certain champagne bottles might be good, IDK about the corks though.
Another consideration is the cap. It is a wider-mouth plastic cap, like a 3 liter soda bottle - I noticed this is going to give me the first warning signs of too high pressure. The cap will bulge out at the top - this is the weak spot on the bottle that can be "pressed in." If this carries on too long the cap will distort and vapor will start escaping and you will be able to tell by the hissing sound like a kettle, and definitely be able to tell by the ammonia burning your nose and eyes.
Safety precautions? Not really... I do improvise somewhat of a blast shield by letting it sit in a 5 gallon bucket. I do like the chicken wire idea...
I've thought about wrapping/reinforcing the bottle with gorilla tape. Maybe I'll make a kevlar suit out of phonebooks....
Ideally you'd want a big clear plexiglass shield you can stick your hands through, or under... you know...
When you see that idiot from New England on national news because of a horribly violent and gruesome SnB accident, you can pour out some liquor for your homie.

o7

 

[Osmosis Vanderwaal]

nah if your acgually using a plastic cap I doubt it could achieve 50 psi before air would just leak out. Especicially if it's hot

 

[SoldadoDeDrogas]

When I originally did the successful run I had to warm it up on a hotplate for a bit because it was wintertime here. Obviously I don't know the PSI, but like I say, I throw everything in and close it and I don't have to open it until it's finished usually. If there is still any visible Li I just shake the shit outta it for a min while I'm letting it cool down to condense the ammonia. So, I mean, whatever the PSI, the cap does work. If you think it's guaranteed to start leaking ~50 PSI, I suppose that's even better for safety as far as using a glass RV.

 

[Osmosis Vanderwaal]

What. a. fucking. Rollercoaster! A jar directly on as burner has a life expectancy of about 5 minuts and the bottom drops usually. As little as a rag in a pan of water with the jr on the rag will prevent it. Mason jars, pressure cooking vacuums temperatures at pressure. I used to pressure cook 3runs of 32 mason jars some days and used the crap out of plastic lids. @250f and they are a bit soft and need a 1/ 4turn to tighten the lid before they cool or air sucks back in and contaminates it (that is water boiling at 2 atmospheres). 50 psi is a commercial truck tire pressure. Maybe I would be surprised thugh, who knows. I heated up a test tube with a phenolic cap andwhen it popped, it was defitely 100 psi. I was surprised to find I had fingers because I thought it exploded, but the cap popped of and it was so loud I turned all of the lights off and the cops knocked on my door 3 mnutes later.

 

[hirozaru]

@SoldadoDeDrogas @Frit Buchner Thank you for your reviews on this.

I can see how incomplete and actually harder to follow this is. I thought this person was trying to help me, but he was leading me in the wrong direction.

He is not suggesting to mix water with lithium though. this is only to wash after the reaction.
And he is not starting from pills, but he wanted me to extract Pseudo in a previous extraction step.

I should have posted that as well maybe ...

anyway, the other recipes are not noob friendly either. So I have kind of given up on this now

I don't get how people say they can do it in the trunk of their car in a parking lot, or in a R.V in a few hours. with all the steps involved...

 

[SoldadoDeDrogas]

No problem, my friend.
I'd like to make a good detailed video explanation at some point. At the very least, I will make another post about the experiment. Looking back at my last post I feel I didn't do it the justice that I could have - but it wasn't meant to be a stand alone post. I just tied everything else together and tried to show/explain how it worked.
My post assumes you've digested all the other material and have a basic understanding.

You can do it in a few hours anywhere because of the almost unlimited improvisation potential of everyday items/products. You can do it with certain crushed pills without extraction first so long as the only amine is EP/PSE and the adulterants permit it. Extraction is only necessary if you are going for a big batch or something is gakking up the end product. The reaction only takes about an hour, if that, especially if you have experience and don't have to reference. Aside from that, you just have to filter, dry, then gas the reaction fuel. Filter the salt and wash it with acetone. That's it... and you've got a good product, straight d-meth - "crank." It's good to use at this point but you can further purify and crystallize into ice if you want.